Peter and Ragy @OceanBeach, San Francisco

Not to just repeat my long rant in the other thread, but your perception of "who is who," while interesting, is not more accurate than the perception that any random person can have by walking down to the water's edge.

You may think you know "who's who," and you may indeed know "who's who" in your world, according to your values. And I don't even dispute that, according to the code of coolness documented in surf magazines and surf videos, the guys in this video are charging hard and doing all the appropriate wiggles in the appropriate places.

But, see, everybody is somebody. Everybody else's perspective is just as valuable as the perspective of the cool kids, including the perspective of the guy who drove for an hour to paddle out at ###### on his foam-top 9'6", got sucked around in the rip for 90 minutes, and paddled back in without catching any good waves. That guy is somebody too. He's who's who. Whether or not self-proclaimed "locals" think so, whether or not Lewis would approve, whether or not it would make a kickass YouTube video.

I think you're getting a little defensive madpie because Peter was born in Australia and Ragy grew up down the coast a bit, though both of them have lived in SF for a LONG time. So, by many locals' standards they don't meet the upper echelon criteria of "born and raised". That seems to be the stamp by which all other forms of localism are measured in SF.

But maybe Chris was just trying to show you who two of the rippers who live in the city are. If you see a compact goofyfoot or a gangly regularfoot, both well into their 40s, absolutely destroying waves, you might be able to say, "Hey, that's Ragnar!" or "Hey, that's Pete". Those are two of the coolest, nicest, and generally most happy rippers that live in San Francisco. Neither one of those guys is going to "cool guy" you out of the water at any time. But if you see them 100 yards down the line and think they have no prayer of making the section, you might want to think twice about paddling and caving in the lip....because they WILL make it. ;-)

I do have a question about what you wrote though: yes, that guy with the foam-top 9'6 is somebody, too. And he has every right to paddle out anywhere at any time. But WHY would he paddle out at ###### on a day that he's just going to spin around in the whitewater for 90-minutes, and considering ###### is one of the most competitive and "localized" spots on the beach? What would be nice is if this somebody was able to be humble and recognize that maybe that's not the best environment for someone of his skill level, and instead he paddled to a tamer/less crowded part of the beach, or to a different beach altogether that's more manageable (Pacifica, HMB, Cowell's, etc.). It's sort of dangerous for others, and dangerous for himself, if he's spinning around on this inside on a 9'6", don't you think? Not to mention, yeah, he's probably going to get heckled by the KCLB.

So, I think a lot of people aren't necessarily saying that people don't have a right, but they are questioning, "Is this really the best decision for you to paddle out here??" I know if I was trying to pull into a barrel, and some guy was half drowning on the inside and I had to go around him to save him from annihilation, I'd be pretty bummed, even as happy of a guy as I am.

My first board was a 6'0" Michael Barron shaped for Ragnar. I got it from Darin at the original Aqua Culture when I was about 10 or 11 in 1991, I think! I still have it, although it isn't in top shape anymore.

@Kenny Reyes: IMO, you're taking madpie's hypothetical example too literally.

A better example of his point is: let's say "Ragnar and Pete" are larger than life to you. That's great and fine, but the hipster riding his fixie down to the beach and look at the ocean doesn't know and could give a f*ck. By the same token the surfer about to paddle out could give a f*ck about the Emo band on the hipster's headphones that he's crying over and the in-love couple walking hand in hand right by both of them could give a f*ck about either "Ragnar and Pete" or the crying Emo band. And so on and so on.

It's all relative.

Kenny, I agree that it can be dangerous for an inexperienced surfer to paddle out at a challenging break.

My beef is more with the assumption, which I see repeated over and over again, that surfers who don't conform to some popular norm of what constitutes "good" surfing or just don't know "who's who," should sort of submit to being pupils in the shredder/localist hierarchy, that they need to "put in their time," show "humility" toward their surf elders, and so forth. This doesn't seem to be an argument about safety so much as it's an argument about access.

Overit2 expressed this perspective perfectly: "You all are not entitled to surf OB you need to earn it." I understand where he is coming from, and I recognize that this is a core value of the prevailing hierarchical norms of "surf culture." I just happen to strongly disagree with it.

My view is that there is nothing to earn, and nothing to learn. There is just the joy of surfing, a joy that is felt no less acutely by a 5 year old kid getting splashed in the shorebreak than by a grizzled local getting pitted at ######. If my hypothetical 9'6" foamy kook stayed safe, was polite, and got out of the water with a smile on his face, then my feeling is that he was doing exactly the right thing no matter how much of a noob he was.

Finally, I recognize that a valid response to all this is "but that's just not reality." Yeah, I know it's not. And I'm not trying to say that anything has to change, and that noobs should have first dibs on set waves, or whatever. I'm just trying to push back a little bit on the assumption that all of us subscribe to the values by which the book of "who's who in SF surfing" is apparently being written.

awesome video. -1 for the liking the Lewis article ;)

I'm sorry to hear about other people's stoke and not enough people who depart from the goonies, so that if you want to be at the gondola at 8:15 tomorrow!

I surfed with many of you that I'm the guy who drove for an inexperienced surfer to paddle or not to paddle. You need to do and then blam: 25 Mph south wind/rain/20 ft!

We all just cannot help to talk to in the lineup and the ocean. Some guy called me in the OB report, we have not been great because it won’t change overnight (if ever). Do you know you'll be getting decked from behind when out at ###### on a local?

I fear that their way up the totem pole.

BVH your syntax is dumbfounding.

@kooktastic: Yeah, I see your point, but I think it’s possible that Madpie might also be reading too much into Chris’ post. Maybe Chris just wanted to show a video of two of the local surfers who friggin’ kill it. Those two particular guys are really nice guys. I don’t think he’s necessarily saying, “That’s right motherf*cker – these guys RIP! So stay away!!!” Those guys just rip, and they are actually pretty cool, too.

@madpie: I was responding to your particular situation about a heavy day, where someone was clearly out of their element. But dude, I have ALL KINDS of weird friends who surf differently, look differently, act differently, etc. As long as they can handle themselves on any particular day, and abide by the rules of common sense and common decency, then I’ve got no problem with ANYONE being out in the water.

However, and I’ve sort of touched on this in previous posts when I’ve talked about “surf culture”, what is common sense to me (someone who grew up surfing very young and experience the aforementioned surf culture) might not be common sense to someone else who started surfing as an adult. They might not know when to get out of the way, and, God Forbid, say they are SORRY when they make a mistake. I can probably count on both hands the number of times I’ve heard someone say “Sorry” to me in the past 15 years when they’ve clearly done something wrong.

For example, and it kills me to relive this: this winter I was out a pretty solid day at 2nd lot. Not gigantor, but definitely solid and definitely heavy. Top-to-bottom, spitting all over the place – epic, epic day. I had a bunch of good barrels, but there was one has permanently scarred my brain at how perfect it was. From the second I started paddling for it, I could see exactly how it was going to unfold, and how absolutely friggin’ shacked I was going to get. There was just one problem: there was a guy trying to get out who was clearly out of his element (wide arm paddling, nose of his board 4 feet in front of him, deer-in-the-headlights look of terror on his face, etc.) who was directly in my line to Barrel Glory. I briefly debated high lining it in front of him, but I reckoned he would have gotten absolutely obliterated by the lip. So, I did the courteous thing and went around him, even though pretty much Rule #1 of Surfing is “If someone is going to get barreled, do everything possible to get out of their way”. So, I achingly went around him and missed the barrel, but as if that wasn’t bad enough, he somehow sits up on his board, presumably so he can dive off of it, and he slingshots the board directly into my shin, causing me to howl in pain as I simultaneously watched an empty OB barrel spit probably harder than any other I have seen in my life.

All of that is bad enough, but I paddle back out, shin throbbing and sit near the guy. I look at him, NOT glaring at him, hoping for some sort of apology, but I get nothing. Nothing but a vacant, million-mile stare. I’m not exactly sure what happened; did he not think there was anything to apologize for, or was he simply unaware?? Whichever the case, neither is a very acceptable answer. So, I my shin is throbbing so badly, and I’ve become so grouchy, that I decide to go in. I take off my booty only to find it a stream of bright red drain out as I plop it off. Turns out his rail caused 7 stitches in my shin. Yeah!!!

So again, there is no right or wrong way to be a surfer, but knowing your limits and being humble can go A LONG way. There’s nothing wrong with a surfer saying, “No way, man – too much for me.” Additionally, it really pays to be aware of your surroundings. I’m certainly not saying that localism is right, but it is certainly a factor at some spots. When you screw up, say you’re sorry. We all mess up from time to time; it doesn’t make you less of a man to admit it. It can go a long way in easing lineup tensions.

Sorry for the long story – been wanting to get than one off my chest for a while. Haha.

All the more reason to ride a foam-top. :) No, but seriously, I completely hear the safety concern.

My version of those stories is the experiences I had as a kid in San Diego getting hassled by old farts who thought they "owned" various breaks, listening to an old moron in Baja Malibu pat himself on the back about all the surfers' tires he had slashed, watching locals at Zippers burn visiting surfers over and over again because they had the wrong color skin, and listening to no end of b.s. spewed by the locals at "my" break about every person who they thought didn't surf the right way.

Ironically, I've never had a single issue with localism in NorCal. I almost always surf by myself, I'm not very pushy, I'm more or less competent, and I'm getting older, so nobody is going to start a beef. But all the hassling and the judgment is in the back of my mind, and when I hear people start to "claim" one spot or another I get really skeptical.

cool video except for the ass dragging behind the cars, and reasonable comments all around. happy that it didn't descend into the usual localism thread.

I think I have heard "Sorry" to many times this past year LMAO! Maybe it's the upset look I give haha!

Maybe ass dragging can become a new sport haha!

gratitude to @madpie and @kenny reyes -- both making strong points without resorting to insults.

I was once out a ###### on a small day... On my 10' log (I'm a heavy guy) and said straight into the Rushmore faces of the surfers out there glaring, assessing, and maybe even judging...

"Hey guys... I just here to kook it up" they looked, they glared, then the grins started, the chuckles began.. I had to wait a while for the nod on a wave but I find that approach works way better than "asserting" my zip code, my years here, or my dubious shredding skillz!

I will say that having gone over the falls a couple of times with SOMEONE else's board wrapped around me was no fun and I think that some communication is warranted just so all of us who are learning have some feedback. I learned a lot from the surfers who talked to me like a person and explained what a knucklehead I was (am?) being. So respectfully I am not always a fan of the silent approach because it is a missed opportunity to teach/learn and who of us doesn't need some of both in our lives...

peaceout

I can only think of one time somebody told me to change my act because I was being a danger to myself and others, and that was my 3rd time ever surfing, somewhere on the ###### of Linda Mar. And yes, I was being an idiot, and yes, I thanked him sincerely for the advice and got the fuck out of his way.

You know, I've never run into any trouble with people at any beach, here or outside of town. I also haven't surfed the sensitive spots which everyone seems to flagellate about, but like, Ocean Beach? I think I can count the dirty looks on one hand, and they all occurred one day I rolled up in the ###### parking lot with a big log and no clue what to do with it... so I asked, and someone kindly suggested that I stay on the inside, which I proceeded to do for two hours. I remember going to ###### back in the Softop days and asking the same question... I believe it was "how should this kook avoid hurting anyone?". And I got solid words of wisdom!

I do worry that this constant back-and-forth about aggressive locals and unwanted outsiders might precipitate into reality. Right now, I think at least for the case of everywhere I surf and just about everyone I surf with, it's a rare occurrence, if it occurs at all. Some of the language and behavior of certain actors on here, however, is starting to give me concern. People, people, can't we all get along? We already ARE, we just need to CONTINUE getting along. It's easy to forget that the Internet is a subset of real life, and the two occasionally have some crossover, and sometimes the reminder can be pretty ugly. Let's avoid that, shall we?

@tehdely: someone at LINDA MAR told you that you were being an idiot?? Wow, you must have really been struggling that day. haha

But to put things into perspective, tehdely, I can save you the worry that this discussion might cause tension that isn't already there because...well...it IS already there. I wish it weren't, but the honest truth is that there IS localism and there IS tension in the lineup, at certain spots anyway. You’re stoked if you’ve never encountered it, but as you said you haven’t surfed some of the sensitive spots that people are flagellating about (I just flaggelated in my pants, by the way). But I surf these spots a lot, and the sad truth is I see this tension all the time. We can only hope to improve the situation gradually over time.

I think one of the problems is that the “locals” don’t feel it is there civic duty to educate the less experienced surfers about what is/isn’t proper surf etiquette, or educate them as to whether a spot is/isn’t beyond their ability. To go back to my “surf culture” thing (sorry), I think a lot of these guys grew up as kids and had to take their lumps the hard way. They had to get yelled at by some of the older guys, or they had to take donuts repeatedly, to figure out for themselves how lineups work and what’s suitable for them. So, I think some of these guys get resentful when some dude who is learning to surfing in his 20s (or older) paddles out to “their” spot and tries to take waves from them. At least that’s the way THEY see it.

So at some of these more turbulent spots or parts of OB, I think it would be smart to really spend some time observing the conditions and people in the lineup to see if they would really fit in there. They might surprise themselves and find the answers to their questions on their own.

Good example: on the first boat trip to the Mentawais I went on, I was SOOOOOO excited that every time we rounded the corner to a new little island, I would pester the guide by asking, “Is that a spot???!! Is that a spot??!!!” He was a really coolheaded Aussie, and answered my questions directly for the first half of the trip. But after me asking about 6 million times, he finally countered by saying, “You’ve got eyes, don’t ya’ mate?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “Well, it’s ok to use them. Go ahead and take a look for yourself and you tell ME if it’s a spot”. Some of the best advice I ever got…

I'm aware that it's going on at other breaks, Internet or no Internet. What concerns me is that the ongoing battle between certain people and this WEBSITE threatens to spill over to real life irregardless of where one surfs. One particularly bad actor is Mr. Chris Wilson himself, who not only admits to stirring up anger among his buddies against this site and its users, but is now leaving pseudo-threatening messages to individuals, including myself. Chris, I've never surfed or reported on ######. Leave me the fuck alone, or let's settle this over brunch, the way My People do things. East Side Frisco, baby.

Sent from my iPad

I think this is wonderful. Chris, lets organize a meet-and-greet between `us people' (the who's who of the 5:45am-9am crowd...more or less) and 'you people' (presumably the who's who of the noonday sun crowd).

What the demeaning tone of your post fails to acknowledge is the considerable camaraderie (and, dare I say 'surf culture') that is shared between `us people'. Most of the Early Morning OB crew--henceforth to be referred to as EMOB (pronounced e-mob...naturally) are very familiar faces in the pre-9am lineup. The fact that EMOB and KCLB (is this to be pronounced K-club? please do edify us) seem to have a sparse intersection is simply too bad, and should be remedied (perhaps at some neutral hour, such as over brunch, as tehdely so boldly suggested.)

Oh, I forgot to mention:
Chris, I really do love your videos. Seriously, whenever any of my out-of-town friends say they didnt know there was surf around SF I link them to one of your videos. The music, the random non-surf clips spliced in, and of course the sick surfing...pretty sweet.

Greg, correct me if I'm wrong, but your post seems to be a bit threatening/demeaning as well. You seem to be implying that you have some sort of "posse" backing you, and that Chris' posse, if he has one, most likely doesn't possess the same considerable camaraderie as the EMOB. The request for some neutral hour brunch seems to be a tongue-in-cheek invitation to a “rumble”, in which the EMOB’s strength in numbers and unity can certainly handle any opposition. It’s very cleverly worded, but, seriously, are you inviting them to brunch, or are you not posturing up and puffing your chest out a bit?

I’m not taking sides here, because I'm cool with anyone that's considerate. But for your information, the KCLB (of which I’m not a member, but I’m cordial with most of the guys) stands for the Kelly’s Cove Local Boys. A good chunk of the homegrown rippers are members of this “club”, though there are plenty of little factions that surf different parts of the beach and rip as well. I think you probably know this without me telling you, but most of these guys are not the type would be really excited to do brunch with you. They are not necessarily against surfing prior to 9am, but most of them surf whenever they want to surf (or whenever the waves are best) because they’ve based their lives AROUND surfing. That’s not better or worse than those who work downtown in an office from 9 – 5, slaving in front of a monitor in a cubicle all day. Contrary to popular belief, many of these guys DO have brains, and many have foregone careers where they could easily be making more money. For most, it’s a conscious decision they’ve made so they have more flexibility to surf.

But, and again I think you probably already know this, many of these guy are not the “brunch” type. If you’re trying to say, “Let’s have my gang meet your gang”, I think you’re in for a rude awakening. Just because you don’t see all of them prior to 9am doesn’t mean there aren’t A LOT of them, and let’s be real here, many of them ARE meatheads who really hope to display their superiority physically.

I don’t think this is the right solution. I don’t think a “meet and greet” is going to work. I say baby steps. Paddle slow; don’t be greedy; say hi; apologize if you make a mistake; don’t get angry if someone makes a mistake on YOU; say a few more words and get to know each other, etc. Sooner or later, both sides can get to know each other. It takes TIME. The culture that exists now was built over generations, so I don’t think one big potluck is going solve everything overnight, you know?

I don't know what you guys are talking about. When I say brunch, I mean brunch. I've never seen fists fly at a brunch place.

@Tehdely, I was actually responding to Greg. But somehow when you other option to you brunch invitation is "Leave me the fuck alone", it doesn't seem that sincere.

But anyway, you can try. Only Chris can answer, but somehow I don't see "his people" as "brunch people". ;-)

I think the threads of this conversation are getting a little crossed.

I don't want to speak for @tehdely but I don't believe he is in any way suggesting a beatdown. Correct me if I'm wrong teh, but I think he's suggesting more that he's, you know, and actual person who actually exists outside of the polar concepts of US vs THEM. I have not myself read the comments tehdely is referring to, but I believe that he's countering something he perceived as "I'm going to hunt you down in real life and harm you" with "or you could interact with me in person like a human being".

Sadly, due to the nature of the internet (and of dick waving) there's no way to say something like that which doesn't come across as some sort of gauntlet throwdown. Text based communication is inherently a breeding ground for misunderstanding.

We are, when it comes down to it, human beings. Acting like them, regardless of what part of "surf culture" we subscribe to, instead of as characters in an US vs THEM internet argument, would be a nice change of pace.

edit: saw that they uncrossed themselves after I posted.....oh well :D
double edit: I do really appreciate that this thread has been really civil. Lots of great posts, level heads, and thought out perspectives. I also love the surf shots. The car dragging parts not so much, but the surf shots were sliiiiick. Might fine surfing.

Thank you Tracey, you took the words right out of my mouth.

And Kenny, you're right. I don't see Chris's "people" (I guess we're calling him some sort of ringleader now? Chris, care to inveigh?) as brunch people.

The thing is, I'm not a fist person. I don't use my fists, they don't brunch. Something's gotta give. And I know some great brunch spots.

Here, let me sweeten the deal, Chris: I'm buying! I imagine we might actually get along if you and I had a chance to meet on reasonable and friendly terms. And your Facebook isn't an open forum if you won't accept my friend request, just FYI ;)

Oh, and if you want, we can start with coffee and work our way up. I'm all about baby steps.

Please stop waving your dick, Tracey.

In response to Kenny:
Yea, my brunch suggestion was mainly a joke, and I sincerely hope it wasn't interpreted as an invitation to fight. [If we ever see each other in the lineup at OB, I will, however, honor my invitation and buy you a post-surf pastry of your choosing at the ###### safeway.] And I agree that the bonds between the KCLB people are probably older and more established than the relatively recent friendships that I've made with some of the EMOB crew.

Brunch aside, I stand by the telos of my previous post: we are not, as Chris implies, simply itinerant kooks passing through the lineup bringing crowds, disrespect, and safety hazards. We love surfing, we surf frequently, and we know many of the fellow surfers who surf similar times/places. We do not feel like outsiders. We are aware that there are other surf subcultures, and some of us would like to get to know them better (I'd love to get to know a bit more about the local lore/people), but some of us probably couldnt care less, so long as the waves keep coming.