Stoke report will not be intimidated

interesting story...
but.
there comes a point when I don't really care how "well" you surf. I'm surfing too

good luck! i'm out of this god forsaken city on the first of June and generally consider X and Y worthless mushburgers overcrowded by Assholes - so perhaps OB is the place we can lock eyes, then say hello

yes, winds have been killing me! and i'm finishing my grad degree so have been super busy - and will be, but if there is a wonderful morning in the making I am there!

Both X & Y are beautiful little spots. You captured what I find exciting about those places. And what I dislike about those places.

I wouldn't have been so accommodating to this person that chewed you out and told you to go back to surf X. But then I wasn't there to determine his mannerism, and read his real intent towards you. Having said that, if there was a hint, or any violence in his tone of voice, and or if he had friends with him, I would have sat back and observed him for a while in the water to see if he made a habit of mouthing off to others too. If not, then I might have followed, or waited for him on the beach and then try to engage him in a conversation to really get to know him out of the water. Many individuals while in the water feel that they are superior to others because they considered their board as a weapon, and or phallic symbol of their virility. And we all know what cold water does to a mans manhood, or in this guys case, his boyhood.

There comes a time when enough is enough by these class A(ss) personalities who think they own the spot they surf, and or the Ocean. But there also is a time to consider them just sadly ignorant, say nothing, and paddle off back to X, or just stay at Y and see what happens without escalating the confrontation any further.

And have a nice day too, without letting some ass spoil it for you.

@Mark cutback Johnson: +1 on the "worthless mushburgers overcrowded by Assholes"

@cryptomail, I hear ya, I don't get worked up when some ass decides to do that anymore. I had enough of it in the Islands when I first moved there trying to deal with being a Haole in the line up with all the Hawaiians. Even though I respected their plight, I still got worked a couple of times, but eventually made it as a Kama'aina and finally fit in after about a year or two.

Good posts cryptomail.

Karma can be a real bitch.

But if you want to expedite things, just feed Mr. Vibey a lil more rope.

This isn't a real stokereportery kind of post. Cutting through the chase, you're basically saying that next time the guy hassles you, you're going to stand up for yourself and thus, if need be, you're prepared for a physical confrontation if necessary. If that's the case, you can't rip on any of the locals of the two (ok, two and a half) SF pointbreaks because you're basically saying you're willing to sink to their level.

How can you condemn these locals, albeit indirectly and (pardon the pun) cryptically, and then basically say that you're willing to throw down the next time they hassle you? For one thing, you're NOT that guy. You're a funny, happy, well educated "normal" person. You've got to find a different/better way around it, or you prove their point in the first place. Secondly, some of these guys are nuts, and it's not going to be a gentlemanly bout of fisticuffs to see who the better man is. They fight dirty.

@Kenny Reyes: sometimes the right thing to do is push back against aggression.

The surfspot bullying is micro scale. On a macro scale: WW2. Hugely different levels of bullying and resistance, but nevertheless the principles are the same. Sometimes you gotta stand up for yourself.

Hey, @crypto, don't take Scratchy's name in vain. RIP, Scratchy. :(

@madpie, WOW, does that bring back memories of my first year in Hawaii, especially on the South Shore. And they were always in packs like wild animals too, rarely one on one. Fortunately for me by the time I was ready for the North Shore, back in the 70's the localism didn't exist there, but it got to be bad in later years. If you were brave enough to go out at places like the Pipe, Sunset, or Waimea on big days you were left alone. Also, having friends like Lopez, Kekai, DeSoto, Aipa, & Burns always helped too. Sorry for the name dropping, but those were the years for me.

You're outing someone on stoke report? Do you really think this is the right place for something like that. I don't think that's going to positively reflect on the surfing community.

On another note http://cryptomail.livejournal.com/23091.html

yikes, all you can really do when you're coming into a surfing community is be respectful and let your surfing do the talking.

I always just come back to; you may be an amazing surfer, but if you're a dick - you're just a dick. Dicks aren't deserving of anyone's respect in any situation. There's no excuse.

The problem is that no amount of logic or reasoning will make a difference. Dicks will always be dicks, and they have an unwavering capacity to justify anything to themselves. They like being dicks.

not to try to start anything, but once again i see a complete lack of respect for the people who have been surfing here all their lives and put their time in and gotten hassled and dealt with it and climbed the ladder. its almost like some of the people on here are surprised that there are dicks in the surfing world, that respect is expected and that there are places you are just not allowed to surf yet. you can all cry about how mean the locals are and how dicks don't deserve respect and all that but, as is my main point as always, know your place in the lineup. they are dicks, but have been here 10 times as long as you have, but are still dicks in the water. sure, agreed. but you moved here two years ago, learned to surf on a trip to costa five years ago, paddle over on your brand new retro balsa wood hybrid fish that cost $900, rolled up in a covertable porsche... whatever. your a kook, excuse me, a beginner. your not allowed to surf spot X, Y or Z. go back to lindamar. not trying to be aggressive or mean, but all this the ocean is free, i have a right to surf here too bullshit is just not reality. its not surfing. you want to go paddle out at a very localized spot, go for it just don't go crying about the big mean kid who pushed you around. why are you surprised? you knew this was gonna happen. stop being a spoiled little brat and crying that its your right to surf every spot in the world. its not. i'm not advocating brute force localism but something in between.
anyway, just my two cents, or less.

if you are new to a line up that is localized then it is not in one's best interest to drop in on a local. try saying hello first.

@crypto, i like: "respect is knowing your place in the lineup, but it's also allowing others to grow, while sharing. Two way street"

imho, its ok for surfers act as stewards of the break they surf regularly (note, this is not their break and never will be, it was there before and will be there after), but not as the enforcers.

Example: regulars should tell the new guy about dangers, e.g. underwater rocks, strong current, roid rager surfers, and its ok for them to give a strong warning, e.g. "if you burn me, I'm going to make sure you don't get another wave." But, the preemptive threats and "kook go home" comments are over the top.

At the same time, the new guy must be respectful, e.g. observe a few sets and see whats what before paddling in, don't drop, dont wave hog, etc.

As to respect, it's earned by giving it out - if you are respectful to others, you should get it in return, if you are disrespectful, expect to be disrespected.

respect is something that's earned. acting like you own a break and telling people to get out does not earn respect from me. it's rude and unless the person is so out of control that they're putting themselves and other people at danger, it's completely unnecessary - no matter how "top secret" and "exclusive" you might think your spot is. if someone doesn't understand "the rules", it doesn't take getting screamed at and a throwdown on shore to enlighten them. it's so much easier and nicer for all involved to be friendly and diplomatic about it.

which do you think learns faster and has more fun? a child that is beaten and humiliated whenever they make a mistake, or one that is taught in a friendly, encouraging environment? everyone has to start somewhere, and i am grateful for the people that have been around longer than myself that are generous enough to help me out with tips and encouragement.

who cares how long someone has been surfing a spot, or what they drive, or what they ride, as long as they're having fun? big ups to anyone that's chill enough to dirty their porsche convertible with sandy boards and fishy wetsuits. i'll admit to board envy, but if someone has the money to drop on a $900 board, then that's great. who am i, or you, to judge other people based on these surface attributes?

yes, there will always be dicks in the water. and yes, there will always be new faces in the water. there is always going to be someone better than you, and someone worse than you. how do you want to be treated by the person that's more experienced than you? that's the way you should treat the person that's less experienced.

what Violet said (wish I had said it that eloquently)

Violet, funny, I was writing my post while you were posting yours. I agree with yours as well.

Pete Swedra, I am thinking you bought the whole line about putting in your time, then you will get respect. I did, too, but now I realize it is often a lie. That is the euphemism localized surfers use to cover their aggression and greed. Your place in the localized lineup is only secure if you go along with the program. Look the other way when a local screams or threatens violence at someone they do not know even if you are not doing the hassling or dropping in yourself. Hassle the surfers you do not know, drop in on them if you don’t know them, etc.

If you are honest with yourself, the screaming engendered is not always about lack of skill or lack of respecting others, or the break. It is simply that they showed up without knowing the local crew. The implication is not hard to make. NIMBY…which generally boils down to proprietary greed.

This leads me to propose that we have been arguing on this site about a related problem, but not the real problem. It isn’t about reporting or not, it is that many surfers would perhaps like surfing to become more civilized. I think the survey should go like this:

Do we want surfing to become a meritocracy, or remain a fiefdom in its basic rule structure?

Meritocracy:

The best surfers get the best waves due to their experience, knowledge and skill. They are simply “on it” in the many ways that a surfer can be skilled. Forecasting, skill riding the wave, wave selection, time in the water, wave knowledge, etc.

Lesser skilled surfers need to learn more rules than the basic “first one up closest to the curl.” Watch on the shoulder at difficult breaks until you are skilled enough, don’t paddle up the peak, paddle in the channel, paddle the opposite way to go into the whitewater to avoid a surfer, dropping in even far down the line ruins the shape of the wave with your whitewater, not to mention all of the usual well known problems with dropping in. There should be intermediate level courses available, beyond “taking a lesson”.

There is more, but you get the idea.

Fiefdom:

I have been here the longest, therefore I have the most right to the waves. I can hassle anyone I do not know. It is OK to threaten them with my stick because I am king. It is good to have a gang that supports my fiefdom, then we can have it to ourselves. Our ‘bad” reputation also scares people away from even trying to surf our fiefdom, and that is an especially good thing.

Seems to me that a democratic process would serve everyone’s needs.

@overit: I've had an impression for a long time that the perpetrators of localism aren't the brightest bulbs in the bunch. Thank you so much for confirming my suspicions! :)

why rationalize with those that can not be rationalized with?

But, one ought to know what they are getting themselves into at locations x and y.

either way, this feels like a wasted effort.

What!? I've been putting in a lot of time and years into surfing to get good enough to be an aspiring Dick and now with this Meritocracy stuff, it sounds like I won't be aloud to become a Dick, but just a surfer in a world with other surfers. Some better than me. Some not as good. All deserving equal respect. Oh well, I was a better kook with intermediate skills anyway. 8-) I think Violet, Maria, Jesse and Crypto summed it all up in the last few posts. Thanks for the good perspective.

@maria, @violet THANK YOU. A+

I surfed a break where I was about the furthest from local. Was about the second-youngest person in the lineup for that matter. The older, localer folks shared waves, pointed out ######s, shared stories, hooted & hollered when I caught a wave, made me hoot & holler when they caught waves, shared the S-t-o-k-e (capital S). Did I mention how fun my morning was? It's possible.

crypto, sounds like you're just venting regret over not having done the right thing in the first place, which was to confront this guy in the moment.

maria: wow, that's a lot of vapid generalization. you don't get it.

wow, i don't have the time or energy to respond to everyones comments recently but you know this is actually a fun discussion, i like this. really though, even though everyone is kind of ganging up on me i think this is an important topic. some of the highlights; "respect is allowing others to grow while sharing"... are you listening to yourself? are we both living in the same california? "try saying hello to a local"..."regulars should tell the new guys about dangers"..."who learns faster...a child that is beaten..." and as for having the locals point out rocks and share stories etc, you surfed bolinas this morning, there is a big difference is between bolinas and some of these other places. and finally "why rationalize with those that can't be rationalized with". the irony in me and this posting is that i'm the guy that sits out in the water and minds my own business and just goes surfing. i'm not yelling at people, i'm not waxing on about how beautiful the waves are or how stoked i am, i'm just surfing. i'm not striking up conversations asking for advice about where ######s are or giving stories about the old days. i am equally annoyed by angry locals as by ignorant kooks, though i'm generally not annoyed but just having a surf. i'm the guy thats been surfing here for a lot longer than most of you, and i don't say that to pound my chest and claim i'm a local but just to say that i'm a part of this culture and lifestyle and I understand it, it seems a lot better than some of you. in my opinion all this frustration about angry locals is due to your lack of understanding of the culture and the people who are part of if. now don't start screaming that some of you have been surfing for years and are happy nice people that pass the stoke and blah blah blah. if that really is the case you should know that i am right and am only trying to save the unknowing from beatings and getting yelled at when one of them tries to say hello to a local or tries to argue that they happen to learn faster in a friendly encouraging environment.

OK, my last post here, pretty overit2 myself. Let's flip this discussion around. Can the culture bearers please explain why you tolerate such things that you do not agree with? It really is actually illegal to threaten to put your surfboard into someone's head because they are a newcomer. I was privy to that lovely conversation recently.

It is a serious question. Please provide a rationale in addition to "iwannasurf".

The culture questioners have made their points , and the only response "is you don't get it, or I am trying to help you avoid a beating". So help me get it.

@overit2 - are you still here? Are you really "over it". It seems like you're really not "over it" at all. In fact, from your two wordy posts today I'd say you're actually quite "into it". Maybe you should change your name again. I'd be happy to set up a poll, so the community here can make some suggestions as to what that new name could be. . .

overit2- yeah, you're right: bobo is a different break, different scene. Just gotta wonder if it's different because it's not localized or if it IS localized in a different/positive way.

@maria, I think a threat to do bodily harm is legally assault (acting on the thread would be battery). Is that what you mean?

The thing I've realized since moving to San Francisco almost 2 decades ago is that this is an urban environment with a lot of transitional adults that moved here either after college for their first job, or perhaps they got transferred to SF from a different job. However, what I notice more in SF than other places I've lived is that there is a much larger contingent of surfers that didn't truly "grow up" surfing. Maybe they dabbled in it a little, but they didn't start in earnest until they had their adult lives sort of set, and they moved to SF and decided they were going to give surfing an honest shot.

I admire ANYONE that is lucky enough to happen upon this sport and what a pleasure it is. However, I notice that many of the surfers who began surfing essentially as adults in the Bay Area missed out on that true surfing “culture” that I myself grew up with. Thus, sometimes I see newer surfers making what I call “common sense errors”. These are things you just know from a lifetime of surfing that you just do (or don’t do) in any localized lineup. In those situations, sometimes I catch myself saying things like, "That guy/girl just doesn't get it." But really, I guess it's ME that's really fortunate that I grew up in a true surfing culture, because I understand these things fairly well, can spot problems early and can avoid/diffuse situations quickly, and can easily work my way into most lineups (and still get a few waves) without getting hassled.

But I think one point of contention I've noticed is that people don't recognize some of the warning signs before they happen. And, to touch on something Violet mentioned, I really don't think the old local grouches WANT to educate anyone. Most of them see the problems as “common sense”, and they get pissed when newer surfers “just don’t get it”. For example, I may think I surf better than most of the surfers at Cannons in Kauai for example, but does that mean I’m going to paddle out in front of Kala and his boys and pick a spot right at the top of the lineup? That seems to be fairly common sense to me NOT to do that, but I’ve seen many surfers try that at the few local SF hotspots (though none of them get as good as Cannons – haha).

If surfing were like tennis or golf, there would be much more clearly defined rules and we could simply point to those to assess what’s right and wrong. But surfing is far less exact, and what seems fair and right to one person may be completely unfair and wrong to another. It’s in those situations I usually sit further towards the channel so as some big, fat, not-so-talented Hawaiian local blows another barrel at Cannons. Metaphorically speaking ;-)

Maria, you asked someone to "please provide a rationale in addition to 'iwannasurf'." Is that not rationale enough? Look, I've got a busy life with a full time job, a wife, a kid: I really don't feel it's my civic duty to attempt to overthrow the current culture just because there are certain aspects of it that I disagree with. I simply really, really, really like the act of catching waves. And I want to get into lineups where I can catch the most waves with the minimal amount of difficulty and confrontation. That's really all it comes down to.

Sometimes that means whoring on my morals or beliefs a bit. For example, that means that sometimes I am friendly with dudes who I think are essentially brainless meatheads simply because it would be more difficult to try to educate them and/or take a confrontational stance against them. Sure, I COULD try to do something more socially commendable and try to turn these guys around and make them better people, but I think that's a pretty fruitless endeavor.

In the end, I just really, really, really want to surf and catch waves. I've learned how to integrate myself into various lineups without causing much of a stir, doing just that: catch waves. I'm ok with being a bit of a Morality Whore for a bit; who cares - I never see these guys outside the water anyway.

I hate to have to reiterate this point, but the real surfing world does not reflect stokereport's strangely utopian tone.

I wish you guys would listen more closely to overit2; he's giving you honost information about the surfing community which some of you can't seem to grasp.

If you think things are bad in San Francisco, or wherever x and y are...I'd suggest you try the same tactics at the slot, four mile, MC or any other coveted wave along California's coast for that matter.

The reality is that important waves have dedicated surfers that enforce surfing's status quo. Thats not going to change and no matter how stoked you are when you show up. As ridiculous as this sounds. Or as much as stokereporters, and I, wish this wasn't the case; I honestly wouldn't have it any other way. Because the alternatives are that much worse!!

Can you imagine how overrun spots like x and y would be if every crypto thought they should and could surf there. That's not the surfing world I want to live in, so I'll take overit2's reality rather than the stoke report's vision. Even if its a pretty bad compromise and sometimes makes my life worse also.

surf "culture" is a joke, and anyone who subscribes to it is trying to live through repeated imagery and a re-representation of something that never was. It is the cause of our greatest problems

@kool-aid, overit2 makes strong points as do you, but, just because something "is" one way now, doesn't mean it will be that way in the future... and, whats wrong with an online community discussing a more utopian reality? why settle for a bad compromise?

Only 50 years ago we had separate drinking fountains for for whites and non whites. Cultures change. The line up doesn't have to be a tool box.

no one can ever answer the "what next" question...
So you're a local - you've lived here all of your life, you shredded this place a billion times, your children are here, your friends are here, you did a beach cleanup in 1988, you've told kooks to "go home" like 20 times - now what. When am I, the man who moved here 3 years ago and don't care to be your friend "allowed" to surf. What is my timeline? I'm not a dick in the lineup, I don't drop in, I don't jockey (too much) yet I'm not a "local". I have no interest in being friends with "you". Further more "you" are not the gate keeper - you do not impose a timeline on me being able to surf wherever I am.

get out of my way

@ Mark : agree whole-heartedly. I move a lot. I was in Encinitas for 5 years. Not a local. I came back up here: I've been in S.F. for 20 years (starting in 1979). Not "local" in the water. Inter-racial marriages were illegal in 1967. Things change. Stupid ideas die. Haters clinging to crappy attitudes age, and their "culture" fades away.

Also, "don't ask, don't tell" about ###### is pretty absurd for S.F.

Here's the thing - in most sports, there are written rules, a maximum number of players allowed on the field at any given time, leagues, divisions, etc to keep things fair and competitive. Players work their way up through the system and if they get good enough, they are allowed to compete at the highest level with similarly talented people. I seriously doubt that anyone here would even consider running out onto the field or court to join in an NFL or NBA game in progress because 'it's a free country and I can play anywhere I want to play', yet that is EXACTLY what you all feel you can do when you surf. Surfing has a much more organic system of rules and regulations. Yes, it seems primitive and unfair, but just as there is regulation in other sports, there needs to be regulation in surfing.

If you paddle out at OB, LindaMar, Bolinas, etc. there is plenty of space to find a peak and crowd that suits your abilities. If you are going to paddle out at a spot that is obviously for experienced surfers that has a much smaller playing field and take off zone, it is asinine to think that you will be welcomed with open arms and allowed to step right up and take the next set wave, especially if there are very few sets coming in and the regulars are barely getting enough waves themselves. This is the reality of the sport. It takes a lot of dedication and effort for people to get good at surfing. People who have put in the time and energy to do this are going to be very reluctant to welcome any new faces in their lineup, because they know what it takes to get to their level. They are serious about surfing, just like other athletes are serious about their chosen sport. I've been in the water with pros and I can tell you that they are far from welcoming if they don't know you. They usually have their posse with them, regulating and making sure that the pro gets whatever wave he wants. Why do you think they do this? I think the answer is obvious.

The ocean is free, but it is foolish to think that means you can surf anywhere you want to. This is the kind of attitude that will create more problems than it solves. If you want to surf at spot Y (or any other high quality wave), you need to respect the locals. You need to be patient and observant. You need to be prepared to spend quite a few sessions hanging on the inside, waiting for the occasional waves that are available because someone wiped out, that no one took, etc. You need to make sure that you don't drop in on anyone or ruin waves by crumbling the shoulder paddling for a wave that is already taken. If you surf well enough and show enough respect, you will eventually find that the locals will begin to recognize you and maybe start being a little less aggro towards you. If you have only been surfing for a few years and are not anywhere near the level of experience of the 'pack', do yourself a favor and recognize where you fit in. Do not attempt to paddle right up to the top and compete with surfers that have been surfing far longer and are obviously far better. You are not entitled to surf at the good spots because the ocean is free. You are more than welcome to try to get as good as you can and eventually, when you have a much clearer sense of the rules, understand the dedication involved and are able to respect the commitment it takes, then you can start the process of working your way into spot Y.

It is not just the fact that spots get more crowded that bothers the locals - it is the fact that inexperience at a challenging spot can also be dangerous to you and everyone else out there. I've seen all kinds of carnage out at spot Y. Broken boards, broken bones, gashes, fights, you name it. It is a serious spot that has serious consequences and inexperience doesn't work there. It's not going to change because of Stoke Report and the utopian vision contained herein.

By the way, it's pretty hypocritical to complain about localism and regulation when you localize and regulate your online community in the exact same manner.

uhh - this shit is posted in this rant too -
next time i see you at spot Y nalu i'm going to tell you to go home or to LM.

is that cool?